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I became a member of CompuServe in January 1993 and soon after joined the AvSig Forum. Once I started planning this flying vacation around the Western States of the USA, it became obvious that there was a wealth of experience out there to tap. This file contains the edited highlights of advice received from SigRats, including some excellent tips on mountain flying, and my progress reports while on vacation. At the end is a small list of contact numbers for reference. Planning From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 My family and I live in Hong Kong and are coming to the States for a vacation at the end of March. We will be flying a Cessna 182 on a round trip, starting and ending in LA, and I wonder whether I could call upon some of you local experts for advice... Our plan at the moment is as follows:
My questions are:
Many thanks in advance, Chris ============ From: Wil Milan [FFZ-AZ], 76477,1632 Chris, FWIW, I'd fly from Grand Canyon to Flagstaff, then on to Kayenta. You'll not only save some time, but you'll see some interesting sights along the way, such as the aerial view of the San Franciso Peaks around Flagstaff (the locals call it "Flag" for short, BTW). Be aware that Kayenta Airport is generally unattended and it's not rare to find the odd critter on the runway. I wouldn't fly in at night, and do talk to the locals in advance. At GCN, FLG, Kayenta, ABQ, and SAF be *very awareof DENSITY ALTITUDE. A cool, pleasant day at GCN or FLG is still a significant density-altitude situation, so check it carefully before each takeoff. Density altitude is prime cause of accidents in this area, particularly for pilots not familiar with local conditions. I would not land at Sky Harbor (PHX). PHX is a busy major airport and no fun to get in and out. Much more interesting--and a lot easier to deal with are Deer Valley (DVT, north end of Phoenix), Falcon Field (FFZ, in the adjacent city of Mesa, or Scottsdale (SDL), again within a few minutes of Sky Harbor. Of the three, I'd recommend FFZ because of the American Fighter Museum there--very much worth seeing. Let me know when you'll be in the Phoenix area. I live a few minutes from both SDL and DVT and not far from FFZ. Perhaps we could meet for breafast at SDL--the restaurant there (The Left Seat) serves excellent breakfast. Perhaps other local AVSIGgers could join us? (Steve White, are you game?) When you go to the Suns vs Lakers game, plan to arrive early for parking, etc. The game is almost certainly a sellout, as there is nothing us Suns fans love to see more than our league-leading Suns beat up on the Lakers <g>. ABQ is a wonderful airport, but it's HUGE and can be confusing. Keep the airport map handy. Depending on your direction, it can tend to blend in with the city, particularly at night. A friend of mine who couldn't find it the first time (at night) asked the tower for directions and they blinked the runway lights for him--instant recognition, and apparently they don't mind doing it. One other stop you might consider: Sedona, about 30 nmi south of Flagstaff. In fact, were I you, I'd skip FLG and go to Sedona instead. It's a wonderful scenic town, nestled amid red-rock cliffs and a real gem of Southwestern life and style. Beware that Sedona airport (SED) is a bit strange: It sits atip a mesa with dropoffs at either end, and the normal traffic pattern has aircraft landing and taking off in opposite directions on the same runway. *Use the radioand keep eyes out. Good restaurant on the field. Sounds like you have a wonderful trip planned--let us know what we can do to make it better. --WM ============ From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 Wil, Thanks for your very detailed reply. I think we'll overfly Flagstaff and stop at Sedona, try for Monument Valley instead of Kayenta, and plan on Santa Fe instead of Albuquerque. Out of Deer Valley and Scottsdale, which would be easier for getting into town? We'd love to meet you for breakfast or lunch one day - I'll leave a message nearer the time. One other thing, how do I go about getting tickets for the Suns/Lakers game? The Sports Forum people told me about it, but on previous trips to the States I've either telephoned ticket agencies or taken a chance at the gate. Is there any way we can reserve or buy tickets now? My boys will never forgive me if we're in town and don't have tickets! Thanks again, Chris ============ From: Wil Milan [FFZ-AZ], 76477,1632 Chris, there's really not much to choose between Deer Valley and Scottsdale as far as access into town. Both are near the edge of town, with easy access anywhere you want to go, and both are fairly easy to get into and out of. If you want to get together for breakfast, why not go into Scottsdale? The restaurant there is better. <g> The easiest way to get tickets is through an agency. You can also call the America West Arena directly (that's where the game will be), pay with a credit card, and have them hold the tickets for you. (If neither of those options will work for you, let me know and I'll see if I can work it out for you.) I would definitely *nottry to get tickets at the gate; the game will almost certainly be a sellout. Get your tickets as soon as possible. Do let me know closer to the date--breakfast it is! (Other SIGrats invited, of course!) --WM ============ From: Irv Siegel OAK/HWD/APC, 70376,147 Chris, In Las Vegas I would recommend North Las Vegas Air Terminal over Henderson Sky Harbor. North Las Vegas has a *lot* more in the way of pilot amenities. Irv ============ From: Steve White [P19 nr PHX], 74007,2331 Chris, I'll offer some suggestions about the Arizona portion of your trip. Grand Canyon (GCN) is a fine airport, but has very limited ground service. A tour bus of the south rim is about it. El Tovar Hotel on the rim is without peer for lodging, if a room is available (602-638-2631). Exploring Flagstaff is fun, but I would also suggest a stop at Sedona (SEZ). Sedona is (was?) an artist's colony, somewhat like Santa Fe, and has wonderful red rock scenery. Very fine airport restaraunt, rental cars available, lots of shops and restaraunts in town. Monument Valley has a private airstrip nearby at Goulding Lodge (801-727-3225 for permission to use the airstrip, 801-727-3231 for reservations at the Lodge).It is a one way strip (3100'x75') but quite doable in a 182 *if it has not rained recently*. The Lodge is just outside the Monument Valley park, and has good tours of the park. Kayenta has a good runway (paved, 7100 x 75), one motel (Best Western 602-697-3205) and probably no rental cars. A call to the motel might turn up something not in the guides. Albuquerque (ABQ) is centrally located and has lots of GA activity. I use Cutter Flying Service there (505-842-4184), and highly recommend them. Their counter people can help you with suitable accomodations and a car. As Doug mentioned, Santa Fe would be easy to fly into or drive to. Phoenix Sky Harbor (PHX) is OK for GA, but has very heavy air carrier pushes, and occassional extended VFR delays. Cutter has an excellent operation there (602-273-3395) on the south side of the field, and Sawyer Aviation (602-273-3770) on the north side is also very good. If you'll be staying downtown, PHX may make sense. Otherwise, there are excellent reliever airports to the north (DVT) and east (FFZ), and in Scottsdale (SDL). Let me know if you'd like further information about them. I presume that you are familiar with mountain flying, especially in a 182 type aircraft. If not, or if it has been awhile, _please_ review those considerations with me or someone else before you fly this trip. Oh, by the way, if (heaven forbid!) one of you party should be unwell during your Phoenix visit and unable to use their ticket to the Suns/Lakers game, you might call me. I'll try to find someone who might be willing to go in their stead. <grin> Regards, Steve P.S. I think you and your family would enjoy the gathering at Santa Maria (SMXGIG) April 16-17-18. If your schedule permits, I hope to see you there. ============ From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 Thanks for all the info, Steve - see my replies to others for our revised plan. Do you have any particular tips for mountain flying? Although I am a current light aircraft instructor, most of my aviation career has been spent either at 250 ft and 450 kt, or FL350 and M.84, and not much in between, so any tips will be gratefully received. I deliberately chose the C182 for the trip as I should have surplus power in most situations (our children are 7 and 9 and we are planning to travel light). What kind of weather can I expect in Nevada and Arizona in April? I won't be planning any IFR flights (except back into the LA bowl at the end) but I and the aircraft are instrument-rated. Forget the Suns/Lakers tickets - I haven't got them myself yet! Don't think we'll be able to make Santa Maria - how about breakfast or lunch while we're in Phoenix? Regards, Chris ============ From: Steve White [P19 nr PHX], 74007,2331 Chris, I think all the revisions to your initial plan are good choices! I'd very much enjoy getting together with you, Wil, and any other sigrats who could make breakfast or lunch. We call that sort of gathering a "mini-gig" (compared to a _serious_ party like SMXGIG). Keep me posted here, or at 602-838-4319 as your plan evolves. Mountain flying tips (condensed) <g>. C-182 is a fine airplane for the task. I own a 63 182F, and fly an 84 182R with the Civil Air Patrol. There are three primary areas where pilots unfamiliar with "mountain" flying typically have trouble: weather, proper engine leaning, and climb performance. You can (usually!) expect excellent VFR weather in Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico in April. Visibilities are generally in excess of 30 miles, clouds are typically scattered or high. Note -- this has been an exceptionally wet year for us, with a long series of tropical winter storms. If one is in progress during your visit, previous rosey forcast is void. Weather concern in April is primarily ice. For daytime VFR flying, that shouldn't be a factor. Engine leaning and climb performance are closely related, and Grand Canyon airport will serve as an example. The field elevation is 6606', and in April you can expect to have a daytime temperature of about 50F. That will yield a field density altitude of about 7500' for takeoff. Book rate of climb (at max gross) is about 400 fpm, with the engine leaned for best power. Maximum power available is on the order of 70% -- say about 160hp. This make a 182 climb more like a 172 at sealevel. With an excessively rich mixture, performance drops. On a typical sunny Arizona, mid-day departure, the runway will have been heat soaking in the sun for several hours. There will be rising air over the runway, but at the departure end will be cool, green pine trees, and a comparable amount of sinking air. Take off and modest climb over the runway, level flight or sink off the end, can produce concern in pilots who don't anticipate it, A common reaction to concerns about engine performance, owing to low land training, is to move the mixture to full rich, add carburator heat, or both. Please don't do that <g>. Many pilots habitually fill the tanks after landing. 88 gallons of fuel is a substantial portion of the gross weight of a 182, and for many flights, is excessive. Certainly, carry enough to do everything and land with at least an hour's worth remaining -- but you'll be at high altitudes and (relatively) low fuel burns. A couple of hundred pounds below gross does wonders for climb performance. Finally (Civil Air Patrol hat on) the area you'll be visiting is spectacular -- but largely uninhabited. Please file VFR flight plans. Please include some basic "survival" gear in your light packing. Please make a _functional_ test of the ELT in the aircraft (at H < H+5, 3 sweeps of the tone). There are lots and lots of places to land satisfactorily in an emergency, but darn few telephones <g>. Have a wonderful vacation -- and let's get together when you're in Phoenix. Regards, Steve ============ From: Will Singleton [SMO], 71041,1147 On your TOA-LAS leg, I'd suggest skipping Apple Valley in favor of going non-stop or, if you must stop, drop in on Big Bear for the sights. Santa Fe would be a better place to park than ABQ. SAF has a terminal and a couple of FBO's, and the town is much more "tourist" friendly. If you want a big hotel with atmosphere, try La Fonda (downtown); the newer and more pricey St. Francis is a good bet (also downtown). Suns vs Lakers: I'll take the Suns by 10. You could probably skip VNY and just drive up to Universal Studios. Take just about as long and save some dough. So, possible lunch gig dates in L.A. are April 14th and 15th? -Will ============ From: Cole Loftus [LAR], 72510,3264 Chris- You might consider landing at Monument Valley, instead of Kayenta. It's a nice dirt strip, hard by Goulding's Lodge. At Goulding's, you can get guided tours of Monument Valley and a canyon I forget the name of. Both places have Anasazi ruins. Goulding's can be reached at 801-727-3231; tours should be booked ahead of time. Mailing address is Box 1, Monument Valley, UT 84536. Airport ID is 71V. -Cole ============ From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 Thanks for the tip, Cole We'll try for Goulding's over Kayenta. Regards, Chris ============ From: Dave Doherty [4N1-NJ], 71410,3013 What do you want to do in Las Vegas? Henderson Sky Harbor is _way_ out in the boonies, either North Las Vegas or McCarren would be much better choices. If a trip to Boulder (Hoover) Dam is on your list, fly to Boulder City. Nice new FBO there, very friendly. East of Las Vegas, density altitude becomes a very big deal. Be aware, and be prepared for the fact that the airplane _will_not_ rotate as soon as you're used to. Keep the nose on the ground until the IAS is right, then figure on an anemic rate of climb. I once used up 6000' of runway getting a 152 aloft on a hot day at Las Vegas. It's worse, far worse, at GCN, FLG, and many others. From Grand Canyon, fly to Flagstaff, don't drive. It's a quick flight and a very long drive. Better yet, fly to Sedona (SEZ), south of Flagstaff, and drive up the local road (not the Interstate) to Flagstaff. A gorgeous sample of one of the country's most beautiful areas. Sedona is a "New Age" center, which it has in common with Santa Fe. Locals call SEZ "the USS Sedona", since it's installed on top of a mesa. Be prepared for some burbles on short final to either runway. Never been to Kayenta, but I understand it's unattended and _very_ lonesome. Page has fuel and an excellent maintenance base owned indirectly by Delta Airlines. While you're in the vicinity, airplane-style, drop in at SGU (St George, Utah), rent a car, and drive through Zion Canyon. An unforgettable experience, one of the truly awesome sights of the West... You might also try Bryce Canyon, which has a lodge next to the airport, a half hour flight or less from SGU. Both canyons are spectacular from the air as well as the ground. I'd suggest Sante Fe over ABQ. The cities are an hour apart, more or less, by car. Better choice of rental cars at ABQ, but more to see and do at SAF. Use Scottsdale or one of the other releivers instead of Sky Harbor. Much friendlier to GA "flib" traffic. Enjoy your vacation! ============ From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, Dave. I've already amended parts of the plan to take account of advice that you and others have given. Bryce and Zion sound great, but I don't know if we'll be able to fit them in this time. I've promised the family that we'll only fly (roughly) one day in three...<g> Regards, Chris ============ From: Bob Dohrman (vny), 72130,2077 Chris, when you get to Las Vegas you might consider North Las Vegas airport. I was there last Oct. for AOPA convention, and they were very courteous and accomodating even though the ENTIRE ramp and all transient parking areas were full, they still found a spot for my a/c. There is shuttle service available, or you can rent a car. The terminal is brand new, clean and shiny, with a restaurant in the bldg. L.A. to Las Vegas is only a 2-2 1/2 hr flight. When you get to Chino airport, go to the Museum, and have breakfast at Flo's (a tradition with good food) and introduce yourself to biscuits and country gravy. Enjoy yourself and the U.S. Bob D. ============ From: Paul Nafziger [WJF], 73007,3141 Suggest the Airtel Plaza at Van Nuys. They have their own ramp for GA airplanes and a rental car agency in the lobby (Avis, I think). Airtel Plaza, 7277 Valjean Ave, Van Nuys, CA 91406, (818) 997-7676 Naf ============ From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 Hi everybody, it's me again! Firstly, thanks to everybody who has offered advice to me about our vacation in the States. Your help and enthusiasm has been invaluable. If you have followed the saga so far, you may be interested in the latest plan, amended with the help of several Western States sigrats:
New questions:
I love it when a plan comes together, regards, Chris ============ From: Steve White [P19 nr PHX], 74007,2331 Chris, In Sedona, you might check The Sky Ranch Lodge (602-282-6400) which is adjacent to the airport (walking distance), Los Abrigados (602-282-1777) or Poco Diablo Resort (602-282-7333). There are many others. One nice aspect of the Sky Ranch is the view, as it's on top of the same mesa as the airport. _Lots_ of hotels in Scottsdale (and Phoenix), but none I'm really familiar with. If you don't get knowledgeable recomendations from one of the other sigrats, tell me what sort of amenities you'd like (golf course, tennis courts or whatever) and I'll look some up for you. Tentative AZGIG on April 7th noted -- look forward to meeting you and the family. Regards, Steve ============ From: Will Singleton [SMO], 71041,1147 Sorry to hear you can't make Santa Fe. I think if it's between Santa Fe and staying in Sedona, I'd take SF. Not much happening in Sedona (others correct me if I'm wrong). >> Watch the Dodgers lose this week... I take exception to that. Those guys aren't real Dodgers. Even though I'm a lifelong Dodger fan, I can name only two current players (ok, four, but Davis and Strawberry don't count). This "flight planning by committee" seems to work. I guess it all depends on the committee <g>. -Will ============ From: Chris Parker, 100267,102 Yes, it is a shame about Santa Fe, but the plan was getting so tight we were going to have to reduce our time in the Grand Canyon area in order to make time for SF, so we decided to expand the "wilderness" part of the trip at the expense of the "cities". We're still going to Vegas, Phoenix and San Diego so I think the children will appreciate the "great outdoors" more (especially living in the "great indoors" of HongKong!). It's also a great excuse to come back next year!!! BTW my wife has struck a deal with me - I spend an hour on horseback for every hour she spends airborne! I'm hoping that a mule ride in the Grand Canyon will knock that idea on the head once and for all! Regards, Chris ============ From: Dave Doherty [4N1-NJ], 71410,3013 Sounds like a good plan, Chris, tho' Santa Fe would be a worthy addition if possible. We stayed at Sky Ranch Lodge in Sedona - adjacent to the airport. You'll need a rental car, so stay wherever you like from the Best Western to Poco Diablo. The reports on the holiday follows next... | ||
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A Flying Holiday
